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Talk:Starfleet ranks/archive
Archives page versions: Talk:Starfleet ranks/archive A Major Purge is Probably Coming The recent deletion of the Voyager provisional commander insignia has got me thinking about how we have been dancing around the thin ice about this issue of "implied ranks"; i.e. higher ranks and ranks in the middle of the tier that we dont actually ever see on camera. With that said, I think we need to have a major purge of this article and perhaps even rewrite the whole thing. At a glance, TOS series ranks are guessing about rear admiral and admiral...the only admiral rank we ever see is in The Trouble with Tribbles and it has been widely assumed he was a Vice Admiral but on camera was only called "Admiral". Likewise for all of the Motion Picture admiral ranks above Rear Admiral...and even Commodore is uncertian in the Motion Picture timeframe (although we hear a Commodore mentioned on a radio braodcast)...we are simply guessing since we never see these on camera. Then we get to TNG...I have studied very closely my Season 1 TNG DVD and have come to inescapable conclusion that in the first season the pips on the unifomrs were SILVER, not gold. They appear to have only switched to gold in the second season. The Admiral ranks in TNG and later time frames are another kicker since we never have seen a five star admiral yet it is on all the charts. As for Enterprise, a hangup there is that Forrest has always been called a Vice Admiral in our articles but like his TOS counterpart we are only assuming he was a Vice Admiral but in fact on camera he was called simply an Admiral. I am going out of town for a few weeks so that will give folks a chance to chime in with opinions before a major change is made to this article. -FC 13:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC) First re-write I have begun the grand re-write of this article with the main intention to give more history of the insignia and expand the background section. I also want to weed out the numerous non-canon insignias such as TOS admiral ranks and the five star pips which have never been seen in a live action production. For those who were fans of these insignia, don't worry, they will be readded (including the pictures) in a special background section about insignia implied but not seen on screen. I also ask a favor of whoever can do this to remove the deputy director insignia and the Voyager provisional insignia (one of which is now deleted) from the line officer comparative rank table. I have tried to do this but mess the table up everytime due to the column script which I dont completely understand. I will make a separate section for provisional insignia and address deputy director in a section about titles versus ranks. -FC 17:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Provisional insignia It would of great help if someone removed these from the new "comparative rank table" and made them into thier own section. I've tried it four times and only succeed in messing up the spacing on the table. We also need Deputy Director taken out since, after the debate about this a few months ago, everyone agrees that this is a title and not a rank. I plan to put such material in a "titles" section. Help wanted! -FC 19:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC) Unused insignia Image:Tos radm.png Image:Tos adm.png Image:Tos fadm.png Image:Tmp vadm.png Image:Tmp vadm-epaulet.png Image:Tmp adm-epaulet.png Image:Tmp fadm-epaulet.png Image:Ent fadm.png Image:TngS1 adm.png Image:TngS1 fadm.png I plan to put all of the now unused insignia back into the article eventually. Due to real world events, the past few days have been busy and there has been little time for MA. I plan to get around to it, just need some time. Perhaps we can put the images in question on the talk page until they are folded back into the article. -FC 15:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Looks like I'm done! Thanks all who helped improve this article! -FC 21:18, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Senority I'm removing this part of the article for now since I'm not sure where exactly it should go or if it is even good material to have. The part about Kim being senior since he worked on the bridge doesnt make sense to me as a naval officer; Kim held a bridge duty station (like Officer of the Deck in the real Navy) but this didnt mean he could go off watch and give a commander an order. Also the Troi and Crusher deal, with them commanding the bridge after taking the test, mirrors the current day practice of staff officers getting a line officer qualification (aka "passing your board") and getting put on the watch bill. Again, it didnt mean that either of those had authority over other Commanders when off watch. Indeed, in the real Navy, in an emergency any line officer may take command and the staff officers, regardless of rank, must follow the line officers orders. In practice, though, line office ensigns (even in emergencies) would be cautioned not to bark at staff officer captains! Anyway, the section reads: :It is notable that Starfleet ranks do not necessarily confer seniority. For example Harry Kim was an ensign, but was a member of the senior staff in his capacity as operations manager on USS ''Voyager and thus senior to many, higher ranked, members of the crew. Similarly, Deanna Troi, despite her rank as a lieutenant commander, was not eligible to take the conn of the Enterprise-D until the events shown in when she passed the bridge officer's test, meaning that up to that point, any command-qualified lieutenant taking command of the bridge would have authority over her in normal situations. In emergencies, there seems to be a different qualification, as showed as-yet-untested Troi legally taking command during a crisis when the rest of the ship's crew were incommunicado''. -FC 13:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)